[banjo]

I think making blanket statements like "Hulu will be next" is not exactly a compelling argument...and an "opt-in experiment for HTML5" on Youtube doesn't exactly sound like a major directive to change from the top echelons of power.

Sure, it's an experiment now, and it's not perfect (doesn't support videos with ads in them, for example). But it's early days. You can't write off the technology just because its potential hasn't been realised and implemented yet.

Given time, community involvement, browser support, and most importantly commercial interest, it will mature as a real alternative to Flash. Already, as somebody with experience developing in Flash as well as in JavaScript for HTML, I can see the potential.

Here's one example that could only ever be done in Flash, now possible just with HTML5 and JavaScript.

Or how about a proof of concept: Wolftenstein 3D in your browser, without Flash, Java, or any other proprietary platform (other than a browser that supports the required standards).

With dedicated development environments and greater adoption on the user end, there will be a boom in innovative use of the technology.

Just give it time.

[marc]

Originally Posted by andoneo

I think making blanket statements like "Hulu will be next" is not exactly a compelling argument...and an "opt-in experiment for HTML5" on Youtube doesn't exactly sound like a major directive to change from the top echelons of power.

All the major video sites are testing HTML 5 video. They're not umming and ahhing about it, they know HTML 5 video is the future and they're preparing for a full site rollout when the time comes. You gave me a list and I provided evidence that all but one were rolling out HTML 5. What more do you want?

The writing's on the wall.

Originally Posted by andoneo

You have to remember Goggle have an invested interest in making Apple's iPhone appear to be substandard. What better way than to use the power of YouTube and video.

Android doesn't support Flash by default (manufacturer has to add it in). Nexus One doesn't support Flash. Google have already thrown their hat in the HTML 5 camp. If you think Google are going to add Flash support to Nexus One and remove HTML 5 support from YouTube, you're crazy.

If the rumours are correct, Windows Mobile 7 won't support Flash either.

Originally Posted by andoneo

Flash owns this space and is becoming more relevant as an advertising revenue model every day contrary to what you might think.

Flash compatible browser share is dropping daily. How is that "becoming more relevant"?

Originally Posted by andoneo

hmmm "not have Standard Flash Support" Maybe Flash lite then sir?

I was talking about the iPad shipping with Flash (ie. "comes as standard"). I'll take that bet for flavour of Flash, be it full Flash, Flash Lite or Flash Gordon

Originally Posted by andoneo

Your a coder right? I think maybe even an iphone app developer if I'm not mistaken. So you probably better at judging what is possible with HTML 5 than I am but I would say with all respect - I'd like to see you try.

I'm a designer and software developer (the non-coding portion of software development). What I'm seeing is lots of prerendered material with some animated overlays. Seriously, it's not difficult stuff. The hard part would be building the 3D scenes and animation... something you'd have to do if it was built in Flash, was a DVD menu or if it was built in HTML 5. I think even QuickTime could do it (QuickTime can handle all kinds of overlays and click zones).

Originally Posted by andoneo

Key word - Developments on that one. the web is an evolutionary world not a revolutionary one. Things change very slowly and embed very slowly.

I agree with that. WebGL is a play thing until there's good support. But for 3D work, OpenGL ES is very, very powerful (it's what powers most iPhone games). OpenGL ES is also very well known and there's source code and docs all over the net. I'd even guess that there's as many OpenGL developers as Flash developers. It's a very old and well established technology (OpenGL was created by SGI in 1992).

Originally Posted by andoneo

I think that's the battle that will resolve this issue as Flash is embedded in Google strategy at least for the medium term.

Google don't like Flash one bit. It's only part of their strategy while they can't use the alternative.

Originally Posted by andoneo

You know what the good thing about this is though.....Microsoft aren't even on the playing field so they can't possibly win.

Silverlight is a very serious Flash competitor. I wouldn't write Microsoft off just yet.

Do you see the full picture? People who want the web based on open standards don't want Flash to survive. Apple don't want Flash to survive. Microsoft don't want Flash to survive. Google don't want Flash to survive.

I understand that there's things Flash does well, but its time is coming to a close.

[andoneo]

You guys crack me up with the 8Bit graphics and flashing balls to prove how HTML 5 is the way forward. Yah welcome to 1996 with Flash 4 ohhhh it has music!

And Marc if it (Bioshock site) can be done why am I only seeing 8bit graphics as evidence of HTML power? Show me something real to back up your claims which seem to be getting more unfounded by the minute "Google don't like Flash one bit"

...Wuh?

Nexus and Android support Flash just in case your unfoundedness was waning.

Flash Player 10.1 on Google's Nexus One

Again with the open source argument. H.264...HELLO!!! Don't here anyone beckoning it's death cry.

I'm just watching something on iView now actually. Nice little flash app.

[marc]

Originally Posted by andoneo

Show me something real to back up your claims which seem to be getting more unfounded by the minute "Google don't like Flash one bit"

...Wuh?

How much evidence do you need? Android supports HTML 5. Chrome OS relies almost entirely on HTML 5 for its future. Google Wave requires HTML 5. Lots of other Google apps are switching to HTML 5.

Google Throws Its Weight Behind HTML 5 - Webmonkey
Google Wave Developer Blog: Google Wave in Internet Explorer
Google Dumps Gears for HTML5

Show me one official statement from Google that says they have future plans that include Flash.

Originally Posted by andoneo

Nexus and Android support Flash just in case your unfoundedness was waning.

That link was an Adobe demo. The Adobe guy clearly says "a preview of some of the work we've been doing". They demoed something similar on the iPhone. It doesn't mean Google will include a Flash plugin in their OS. Nexus One does not have Flash support.

...Nexus One does not have Flash support.

Originally Posted by andoneo

Again with the open source argument. H.264...HELLO!!! Don't here anyone beckoning it's death cry.

Again, you're missing the point. H.264 is proprietary, but HTML 5 isn't. That means if MPEG (Moving Picture Experts Group) start being difficult to deal with, everyone will use a new codec without much additional work. I wouldn't be surprised if there's several popular video codecs in the future, just like we all use JPEG, GIF and PNG for images. It doesn't really matter, and that's the point.

Originally Posted by andoneo

I'm just watching something on iView now actually. Nice little flash app.

iView is switching to H.264.

"The site streams video in Flash Video format, and is planning a transition to 600kbps H.264 to be completed by 2010."

ABC iView - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What else do you have?

[Dozer_]

You are getting fucked by Steve jobs. I've been a mac advocate for 20 years, and what apple are doing with flash will eventually give google the leading hand in cell phones (flash will be used). Flash, sorry to say, is here for a lot longer, and is the reason I'm not getting an ipad. You will all suffer shrtly by pYong big royalties to apple for video and iBook content.

[skritter]

Originally Posted by Dozer_

.......You will all suffer shrtly by pYong big royalties to apple for video and iBook content.

And loving it!!

[skip]

I'm a school teacher (IT, media and science too) who does a bit of part time web development.

I can't fathom why anyone would do a website in Flash for quite a number of reasons (accessibility, indexing by search engines etc). I never touch Flash when doing anything for the web. Yuck. Except for embedding youtube clips. And streaming audio. Yeah, I'm a bit contradictory. I can't wait for a better web video & audio experience without Flash though.

That being said....

In terms of teaching animation, simple programming and making games, Flash is great. It's such a fast and easy way to get some awesome results. One of my students last year (who scored perfect marks by the way ) created a great Pokemon clone in about 5 weeks. I'm not aware of any other PC or Mac based software that would allow such a reasonably cruisy learning curve and quick development. And I love the abundance of flash games out there. I'm part way through creating a multiple-minigame thing to promote a band for one of the bands I do a site for...I can't imagine how difficult it would be to create in another 'real' programming environment and put on the web for people to play.

I think Flash has its place for now...If I could *easily* do (and teach) what can be done in Flash with HTML 5, Javascript & CSS, I would happily switch to these open standards for interactive entertainment. But until it becomes as easy, Flash will be around for the things it's good for.

[banjo]

Originally Posted by andoneo

You guys crack me up with the 8Bit graphics and flashing balls to prove how HTML 5 is the way forward. Yah welcome to 1996 with Flash 4 ohhhh it has music!

Jesus Christ, use your imagination dude. Imagine what's out there now, what's been done in a technology less than a year old, as a field of saplings. I'm telling you there's a forest there, it's just waiting to mature. But all you see is a few sticks.

It might be 8-bit graphics now, but the next one will be full-colour. And the one after that will have shadows. And the one after that will ... well, I hope you're getting the picture about the way technology develops, otherwise this conversation is a lost cause.

As for iView: there's no reason it couldn't be done now in HTML5 + CSS3 + JS, regardless of your lack of imagination. They don't do it because IE wouldn't support it. But if IE got on the bandwagon you'd start to see a hell of a lot more adoption of the technology.

[andoneo]

Originally Posted by skip

I'm a school teacher (IT, media and science too) who does a bit of part time web development.

I can't fathom why anyone would do a website in Flash for quite a number of reasons (accessibility, indexing by search engines etc). I never touch Flash when doing anything for the web. Yuck. Except for embedding youtube clips. And streaming audio. Yeah, I'm a bit contradictory. I can't wait for a better web video & audio experience without Flash though.

That being said....

In terms of teaching animation, simple programming and making games, Flash is great. It's such a fast and easy way to get some awesome results. One of my students last year (who scored perfect marks by the way ) created a great Pokemon clone in about 5 weeks. I'm not aware of any other PC or Mac based software that would allow such a reasonably cruisy learning curve and quick development. And I love the abundance of flash games out there. I'm part way through creating a multiple-minigame thing to promote a band for one of the bands I do a site for...I can't imagine how difficult it would be to create in another 'real' programming environment and put on the web for people to play.

I think Flash has its place for now...If I could *easily* do (and teach) what can be done in Flash with HTML 5, Javascript & CSS, I would happily switch to these open standards for interactive entertainment. But until it becomes as easy, Flash will be around for the things it's good for.

I think SKIP's onto something apart from his distaste for flash himself.

The web's not just for elitist geeks who want to monitor CPU levels and run separate threads for every browser process like you guys with your 8bit graphics.

It's also for kids like SKIPs students who can pick up flash in a snap and create amazing interactive art and share it online. What an amazing empowering thing. What a wonderful way to express themselves. If you guys had your way they would have to have computer science degrees in grade 5.

My son started surfing the web at the age of 3 because of one thing... Flash games. He still plays them. And I hope for a long time to come.

I think this is actually quite unprecedented. Apple has led the way on many things. The lack of floppy on the iMac, USB, all that but the key difference here is it's now trying to kill software not hardware.

Ask yourselves why. It just so happens that streaming flash content is at odds with the iTunes store delivery method??? Or possibly the free flowing world of flash development might make the locked down app store seem a little more fascist than it is already.

Politics people!!!

The whole enclosed OS thing on the iPhone and iPad, the lack of transparency and self serving rejection of apps on the app store. It's kinda shitty yes but I still love it's ease of use and apple goodness, but passive aggressively suffocating a long standing format for the interwebs. That's just mean hearted and anti-competitive. Not the apple I grew up loving.

This whole hating on flash as well by the apple die hards. What's that all about? Like the iPad haters. You baffle me with your rage.

I just feel like saying to you:

World with iPad.....World without iPad? which would you prefer?

Apparently the total annihilation of something that has benefit for some people (maybe not you) can be a good thing.

Down with Proprietary formats!

....Except H.264, Quicktime and iPods and umm oh yeah MACs...Anything endorsed by apple basically.

Hey Marc...I know I'm crazy to think Flash will be on Nexus...apparently so are Google!

Google and Adobe Bringing Flash 10.1 To Nexus One - Nexus one - Gizmodo

[marc]

Andoneo:

Let's not beat around the bush any more. The facts are simple. Flash does some things very well. Flash did some things that had previously not been possible. Flash was in the right place at the right time.

Moving forward, it seems like HTML 5 will be the dominant tech, even if Flash games and some sites continue to use Flash. I don't see Apple including a Flash player any time soon on the iPhone or iPad.

Yes, it's very clear that no Flash on the iPhone and iPad is partially a political move. It looks like not including Flash on Windows Mobile 7 is a political move too. Google only using Flash sparingly is probably politically motivated as well. It doesn't really matter "why". It doesn't matter if it's fair or not. The stats don't lie... Browser support for Flash is dropping, due to people using mobile devices to surf and people installing ClickToFlash.

That's the way the market is heading. Sites like the Bioshock website aren't as prevalent any more. Why? Because they don't work on mobile devices, which is how a lot of people consume their content. iPhone/iPod accounts for 13% of Bjango's traffic. Sure, we're an iPhone developer, so you'd expect our stats be skewed, but 13% is a lot of users. I suspect The Age and similar news sites see a significant enough traffic from iPhone users to warrant a careful consideration of tech used on their site.

This is the trend. Building rich media websites full of animation and sound is not the trend.

If your entire income is derived from building Flash websites, then I respectfully suggest you stop fighting everyone in this thread and you polish your HTML/CSS skills, because you will be needing them at some point soon.

Originally Posted by andoneo

My son started surfing the web at the age of 3 because of one thing... Flash games. He still plays them. And I hope for a long time to come.

How well do you think keyboard and mouse driven Flash games would play on a device that has no keyboard or mouse? (Software keyboards are atrocious for games and iPhone doesn't have arrow keys.)

Originally Posted by andoneo

This whole hating on flash as well by the apple die hards. What's that all about? Like the iPad haters. You baffle me with your rage.

I don't hate Flash. The trend is for it to be used less though. And with good reason.

Originally Posted by andoneo

Hey Marc...I know I'm crazy to think Flash will be on Nexus...apparently so are Google!

Google and Adobe Bringing Flash 10.1 To Nexus One - Nexus one - Gizmodo

Well, it hasn't happened yet. And until it does, your websites can't be viewed by all those customers. If a client was using Flash, then they redesign their website in HTML, do you think they'll redesign again using Flash if/when there's Nexus One support?

[andoneo]

I wish my entire livelihood was derived from Flash development. It's fun to play with.

I'll probably get lynched for saying this but the new Adobe CS 5 is meant to support iPone native APPS!!! More empowering technology from Adobe. Probably will be blocked by apple though somehow. great news for mediocre app devs like me. Bad news for developer elitists though me thinks.

Okay so question: Opera for iPone is in beta and has been announced before being rejected by the app store (see what I did there...rejected not submitted huh, huh)

So who here thinks they would buy Opera for iPhone and would the inclusion of flash player in Opera influence your decision

Great PR move by the Opera people by the way to put pressure on Apple. When people get wind of a flash enabled browser (If it is) being rejected there will be some serious negative feedback on apple.

[marc]

Originally Posted by andoneo

I'll probably get lynched for saying this but the new Adobe CS 5 is meant to support iPone native APPS!!!

I don't think there's going to be many good apps built using Flash Pro CS 5. There will be some game conversions, but I really don't see that as a viable path for decent apps.

What it does is create Objective C source code for your Flash app. It'll be horribly inefficient and likely won't be able to take advantage of all the stuff normal Cocoa apps can.

Good luck to Adobe. It was a smart move. Will developers flock to it and users love apps created by it? Highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by andoneo

Okay so question: Opera for iPone is in beta and has been announced before being rejected by the app store (see what I did there...rejected not submitted huh, huh)

So who here thinks they would buy Opera for iPhone and would the inclusion of flash player in Opera influence your decision

Great PR move by the Opera people by the way to put pressure on Apple. When people get wind of a flash enabled browser (If it is) being rejected there will be some serious negative feedback on apple.

It was a great PR move by Opera. Does that mean the app will be approved? No.

[andoneo]

Sounds a bit like anti-competitive behavior to me.

Anyone remember the Microsoft EU case. I wonder if this issue might not go away that easy.

[marc]

Maybe it is. That's the current landscape though.

[andoneo]

Non biased look at Flash and HTML 5.

HTML5 and the future of Adobe Flash

[dotnet]

Originally Posted by andoneo

Non biased look at Flash and HTML 5.

Not everyone seems to agree:

Flash Apologists are Legion

Cheers
Steffen.

[andoneo]

Luke....I can feel your anger...let go of your hate. That guy needs a Valium.

[tcn33]

On a related note, the FlashBlock extension on the new OS X Chrome beta works like a charm.

[marc]

Originally Posted by dotnet

Not everyone seems to agree:

Flash Apologists are Legion

Good article.

Ray Valdes missed the point that some of the important parts of HTML 5 are already supported in all the good browsers (everything except IE). People are using things like canvas, video and caching already.

[andoneo]

Flash Vs Ajax

I shit you not. The rocket is called AJAX....I love this movie.

YouTube - Flash Gordon Hawkmen vs Ajax